Rick Warren Can't "Take Sides" on Gay Executions

Via Box Turtle Bulletin comes this Newsweek.com post in which we learn that Rick Warren, who in the past had ties to the Uganda pastor who helped spearhead legislation that would execute HIV-positive gay men if enacted, will not speak out against the legislation, saying that "it is not my personal calling as a pastor in America to comment or interfere in the political process of other nations."

On Meet the Press he said, speaking more generally on the gay issue, "As a pastor, my job is to encourage, to support. I never take sides." As Newsweek's Lisa Miller points out, this is a guy who called abortion a "holocaust" and who certainly does what he can to stop it in this country and around the world. Surely, he believes, as a self-proclaimed moral leader, that one must speak up against injustice. That is, if he sees state executions of gay men as a true injustice at all -- or at least one that is worth upsetting the apple carts he so neatly set up in Uganda.

And is it a coincidence that the Obama administration -- in which Warren has a fan at the very top -- has not spoken out loudly enough against what's happening in Uganda and that the man who doles out the AIDS dollars (our taxpayer dollars, need I remind) on behalf of the president to Uganda, PEPFAR chief Eric Goosby, says pretty much what Warren says? According to Newsweek.com, Goosby says his job is "not to tell a country how to put forward their legislation."

That has got to be one of the most outrageous things I've heard so far from an Obama official: We're neutral on extermination.

UPDATE: Max Blumenthal has done a lot on Warren and his Uganda connections and I've had him on the show often. This piece he wrote back in January is a good refresher for the discussion now about Warren. Read the whole thing, but just wanted to pull out this passage that sums up Warren's investment in Uganda:

Days later, Warren emerged so enthusiastic after a meeting with First Lady Museveni, he announced a plan to make Uganda a “Purpose Driven Nation.” “The future of Christianity is not Europe or North America, but Africa, Asia, and Latin America,” he told a cheering throng at Makerere University. Then, Ugandan Archbishop Henry Orombi rose and predicted, “Someday, we will have a purpose driven continent!”

Melissa Etheridge on Activism, Celebrity and Rick Warren

Below is audio of the full Melissa Etheridge interview from the show today.

Regarding the "reaching out" and the ongoing dialogue that both Melissa Etheridge and Rick Warren (and his defenders) have talked about, she told me that she and Warren "email," though he has "been sick," so they haven't been able to get together. But, she says, she plans to visit his church, and that she hopes he will will visit her home.

We talked about the role of gay celebrities as well as of gay activists and the dilemmas that arise. We also talked about Warren's beliefs, most of which it doesn't seem she had known in full. Still, she discussed the "experience" of meeting with him as something powerful and important. She describes their having been booked for the same event (where she had to deal with him) as the "universe handed me something." Below are a some highlights, but I suggest, for context, you listen to the entire interview and give Melissa Etheridge a fair shake. Let me know your thoughts.

Signorile: I want to come back to what [Rick Warren] believes, and what his beliefs were and what he’s about, in a few minutes, but just staying on this idea of you taking that position and then it being so public, you[once] used this term, that you felt Bill Clinton threw us "under the bus."

Melissa Etheridge: Yes.

MS: A lot of activists, when you came out and assumed this role, because you are such a powerful figure just by virtue of who you are, they felt undermined from their message, and felt you threw them under the bus...I don’t know how we deal with this issue of, you know, we want public figures to speak out and be public, and of course when we don’t agree with them we don’t like that. So, I’m by no means saying I’m absolute [on this]...But what do you say to those who say you undermined them and threw them under the bus?

ME: I am sorry if they felt like in any way I undermined them. I truly believe everyone has their perspective and position on this. I’m glad for the activists who say this is not right to include someone who has spoke very poorly about a community that got this man elected...I also know I had this experience that I had to speak about...I think the best thing I can do for the gay community is speak my truth and say this is what happened to me.

MS: It sounds like you really didn’t get a lot of information about this...and find out what his views really were...Did you connect with the Human Rights Campaign [a group with which she has worked] and other gay groups before making your decision?

ME: No, I looked it up on the Internet. I tried to find what people were saying. I watched the beliefnet article, where he was asked about, “So gay marriage, is that like pedophilia and incest and stuff?" And I got to ask him, “So what’s that all about?” And he gave me his response. Now, again, I’m just going to take him on what he says --

MS: But can we take people on what they say when they’re working against us? Shouldn't we go by what their record is? We have seen that this man has empowered the very forces in Africa that have allowed people to become infected with HIV. He pushed abstinence-only programs, he helped to demonize gay people. There are gay people locked up in jail …because of Rick Warren...So shouldn't we go by his record?...

ME: ...Yes, absolutely we should. We should hold people accountable. Now, does that mean they are exiled from what we are trying to accomplish here, which is a united America? Or do we say, we see you now? You can’t be part of this party and hide that. I really want people to know that I’m not defending him.

MS: I think people know that, and you talked about reaching out, but I guess their feeling is, You reach out when people come halfway or three quarters of the way..The way he’s worked against gay people, would we reach out to someone who has racist views? I think Barack Obama would say, No, they’re not welcome.

ME: Right. Okay, you know, again, it’s such a fine line. And I, in my path and where I’m at, believe that we accomplish more by being present, by being out and open and saying you can no longer do this and we are all in this together. You got up and gave the invocation in front of two million people who wanted change and you are now held responsible. I think change happens when you include, not when you exclude...

MS: What do you feel Rick Warren has done though to change? You say we shouldn't’ exclude but he has excluded people...Have you spoken to him since then? Do you have an ongoing dialogue?

ME: We email. He’s actually been very sick, which says a lot to me,(laughs) because I look at heath in a lot of different ways. And he has emailed me. He emailed me a letter he wrote to his gay friends...He has asked me to his church, I have asked him to my home...

Listen to the full interview below.

On Today's Show

At 3:30 ET: Melissa Etheridge, who performed at inaugural events, will join me to talk about her controversial stand in befriending evangelical pastor Rick Warren and defending Barack Obama's decision to have Warren give the invocation at the inauguration.




At 4:30 ET, I'll speak with Alexandra Pelosi, whose film, "The Trials of Ted Haggard," airs on HBO this Thursday. It's a snapshot of Haggard's pretty sad life these days. While Haggard is promoting the film on Oprah and Larry King Live, Pelosi has done few broadcast interviews. (Our show makes a brief cameo in the film; Pelosi had shot in my studio back when I interviewed Mike Jones during his book tour.)

Listen to The Michelangelo Signorile Show weekdays live from 2-6 pm ET on Sirius Satellite Radio’ s OutQ, Channel 109. Not a subscriber? Not a problem! Listen online any time with a free three-day pass.

Rick Warren Booed

Was it just me or did you hear the boos -- and mild applause -- when Warren's name was announced?

More From Bishop Robinson

Bishop Gene Robinson says that the Obama transition team was talking to him prior to the Warren controversy about being involved in the inaugural ceremonies,but that they clear were trying to make amends by choosing him for this Lincoln Memorial concert event. Bishop Robinson is a good friend of the show; we've him had on the show several times, from way back when he was under attack just prior to being made a bishop, and I will try to have him back on inauguration day or shortly thereafter.

The event will air on HBO for free to those with cable, and Bishop Robinson says he will not give a Christian prayer, which I think is very thoughtful and respectful of him, and in fact would be "horrified" at the thought of pushing his faith on others:

Bishop Robinson said he had been reading inaugural prayers through history and was “horrified” at how “specifically and aggressively Christian they were.”

“I am very clear,” he said, “that this will not be a Christian prayer, and I won’t be quoting Scripture or anything like that. The texts that I hold as sacred are not sacred texts for all Americans, and I want all people to feel that this is their prayer.”

Bishop Robinson said he might address the prayer to “the God of our many understandings,” language that he said he learned from the 12-step program he attended for his alcohol addiction.

Bishop Robinson said that his partner of more than 20 years, Mark Andrew, would accept the Obama team’s invitation to join him in attending several inaugural events. The two had a civil union ceremony last summer in a New Hampshire church.

Rick Warren's AIDS Lies

This is a couple of minutes from my interview on the show with Max Blumenthal this week, focusing on just one aspect of his very important piece which exposes how Rick Warren's AIDS work in Africa -- in Uganda in particular -- is not only a sham; it is killing people and helping to demonize homosexuality rather than saving lives.

On Today's Show

At 3:30 ET: Max Blumenthal will talk to me about his expose on Rick Warren, and his disastrous effect on AIDS prevention in Africa -- though he has been heralded by the Obama folks as someone who battled AIDS. There's a lot here -- much of it horrendous and angering -- and we'll get into it all. What does Obama think of all this, and will anyone in the media ask him about it?


At 4:30 ET: Sex columnist and editor of The Stranger, Dan Savage will join me and we'll get into his theory that the ricin threats against Seattle bars may be from a disturbed gay man. Mostly though, we're going to talk about a topic that we've been talking about quite a bit on the show: Is Stonewall 2.0 fizzling already? Dan thinks it is.

Rick Warren's Sham AIDS Work

Rick Warren's supporters have pointed to his supposedly battling AIDS in Africa as one way he is different from other evangelicals. But Max Blumental reveals the antigay, abstinence-only, ineffective and even dangerous programs Warran promoted. I'll be having Max on the show this week to talk about it:

However, an investigation into Warren’s involvement in Africa reveals a web of alliances with right-wing clergymen who have sidelined science-based approaches to combating AIDS in favor of abstinence-only education. More disturbingly, Warren’s allies have rolled back key elements of one of the continent’s most successful initiative, the so-called ABC program in Uganda. Stephen Lewis, the United Nations’ special envoy for HIV/AIDS in Africa, told the New York Times their activism is “resulting in great damage and undoubtedly will cause significant numbers of infections which should never have occurred.”

Mike Rogers on Hardball

This appearance is from earlier in the week but between our awards and the holiday I didn't get a chance to play it. I think Mike Rogers did an exceptionally good job of throwing this guy off. He turned it around, saying we're winning because Rick Warren scrubbed his web site, and this just changed the script and the other guy did not have that script! Mike takes risks rather than doing the predictable, something others who do the talk shows should do now and then. Sometimes risks pay off.

Debating Rick Warren

Some callers to the show have been defending Barack Obama's decision to have Rick Warren give the invocation and it has certainly caused a lot of debate and discussion on the show. Here are a couple of those calls. Let me know your thoughts.

Prop 8 Supporters: Nulify Existing Marriages

The Yes on 8 people have now moved to get all of the existing 18,000 to 20,000 marriages between gay men and between lesbians voided, invalidated, completely nullified.

And this coming just as Barack Obama is rewarding Rick Warren for helping to make sure Prop 8 passed. I am just becoming more and more infuriated at Barack Obama for giving him the invocation slot at the inauguration. It was a kick while we were down; now this is another punch in the stomach from the fundies.

In a more positive development, CA Attorney General Jerry Brown filed to have Prop 8 voided:

Brown's argument on Proposition 8, contained in an 111-page brief filed at the last possible moment before the court's deadline, surprised many legal experts. The attorney general has a legal duty to uphold the state's laws as long as there are reasonable grounds to do so. Last month, Brown said he planned to "defend the proposition as enacted by the people of California."

But in his filing, Brown, who personally supports same-sex marriage, offered a novel legal theory to back his argument that the measure should be invalidated.

The California Constitution protects certain rights as "inalienable," Brown wrote. Those include a right to liberty and to privacy, which the courts have said includes a person's right to marry.

In the Navy?

Could it really be true that a gay man is being considered for Navy secretary? Is it a way for Obama to blunt the criticism re: Rick Warren? Or, considering the source (right-wing Moonie Times) is this the fundies just being paranoid because the guy has been backed by Dems in Congress and they want to cut it off at the pass? Or is it both?

Homophobe to Give Invocation at the Inaguration

Rick Warren will being giving the invocation at Barack Obama's inauguration. We talked about this on the show in hour three and hour four. Some people thought it was okay, even "brilliant" of Obama for "reaching out" and making "bow" to him. But I think it's an affront and an insult, and I explained why: Reaching out, to me, would be having the guy come in the White House for a discussion on issues, maybe even with his opponents present. But giving him a platform and visibility at this event is an award, and the symbolism is powerful, as Obama legitimizes the guy.

The gay and liberal blogosphere has lit up with the story, and people are angry. It also has attracted attention of groups like People for the American Way. I think after all the centrist cabinet picks, people were willing to accept that Obama was still going to pursue his agenda, and probably waiting for that one overture to the left. And then they get this! Rick Warren helped Prop 8 pass and lied about it. He should not be respected or rewarded by the man we helped elect. It's a slap in the face, while we're already down from the loss in California.

One thing I will say about the events today: The Human Rights Campaign jumped into action, with Joe Solmonese sending out a pretty strong letter taking on Warren and criticizing Obama for hosting him. I think this is the direct result of the energy and activism of the last few weeks, and the response across the country to Prop 8. HRC was completely irrelevant and sidelined. They were not going to let that happen this time. It shows why grass roots activism is important if we want the mainstream groups to speak more forcefully.

Obama, McCain and Rick Warren

We'll be going through the Saddleback Church forum -- as troubling as the entire thing was, having an antigay evangelical pastor asking the candidates questions about politics that he has no business being involved in -- and we'll look at both candidates' responses. I haven't posted on this because I wanted to break down the audio and get at a lot of this on the show first. We'll do it in the first and last hour. Please join in. And I'll post on it all later on.